Evening out the keel (3.0, 3.5, and Pathfinder)

[Matt James]

I wanted to start a discussion on the power disparage in these iterations of the game. With how magic works and the exponential way on which it excels, I wanted to open up a discussion on ways that this could be curbed. Playing a purely melee character just isn't viable into the higher levels and I don't feel Pathfinder did much in the way of fixing this. Clerics and Wizards are just simply too awesome and can replicate anything that a melee character would do.

The Vancian magic system sort of paints you (the designer) into a corner and I'm not sure it is easily fixed without a complete revamp.

[Steelfiredragon]

the vancian system is bad news to begin with, but one would be surprised on the amount of those who like it.

I hate it personally, it never made any of my casters seem powerful enough to compete with hte Iconic casters of the ruleset, setting or other books.

the introduction of the sorcerer never helped imo.

useing a mana/spell point system would work better......

balancing it out with tankers and backstabbers, make class abilities obtainable at higher lvls that allow them extra damamge and or double the chance of a critical hit..... or both.


or we could just keel haul it. argh.....

[4649matt]

Vancian magic is a fundamentally unbalanced magic system. It was designed to be an imbalanced and non-linear power progression based off of a series where the magi were pivotal and powerful.

To maintain any semblance of balance, strict spell restrictions have to be enforced and an adventuring pace has to be set. Any spells that replicate something a mundane character can do have to be checked at the door: no detect traps, knock, personal buff spells etc. Magic users should be encouraged to have some reusable spells so they always have something they can cast (spell-like ability, at-will spell, etc). The 5 minute work-day should be actively discouraged.
There is also the Dark-Sun approach, where Divine magic is rare to nonexistent and Arcane magic is tainted with the higher arts being lost or fiercely guarded.

One reason I moved on to 4e was because it was hard to keep that iron grip to maintain a semblance of balance. It wasn't necessarily fun either.
If you haven't looked at it, 'Enlightened Grognard' is a solid revamp of 3.x DND that cribs from 4.x DND to make a fairly compelling system.

[Matt James]

I really loved playing 3.x from level 3-10. Anything below was too boring and anything above was crazy. You really had to have levels in a magic-based class to even compete.

Sean K. Reynolds put out his own little sourcebook called the New Argonauts awhile ago after he left WotC. It was based on ancient greece and had a Clash of the Titans feel to it. It was low magic and very cool. You can get it for free on Paizo (CLICK HERE).

[4649matt]

That range of level 3-10 has always been the sweet spot for me in DND across all editions.
Even in 4E where 1st level is more Heroic than previous editions, level 3 is where things get interesting.

I will have to check out New Argonauts.

As an aside, a few months back I hopped in on an epic level game of 3.X with some friends and there were no straight casters in the party. It was a combination of their inability to survive through the gauntlet leading up to epic and a general disinterest with a "walking spell list".

[Diffan]

In my vast experience playing 3e/v3.5, the power levels starts to slowly shift in favor of spellcasters about level 7-8 when they gain 4th level spells. At this point, they've achieved enough lower level spells to cast every encounter and not resort to their lowly crossbow on a consistant basis. This is also where the majority of melee/martial-based classes start to drop off. By now, they've gone through one or two possible feat trees and are progressing in a Prestige class. But even the best melee/martial-based PrCs don't really compare to the raw power of 4th level spells and beyond.

A few ways I've curbed the potent amount of magic that seems to rip this edition to shreds is to force your character to role-play (funny enough) the actual art of magic. By this I mean how they gain their spells. By the rules, wizards can add 2 spells to their spellbook through personal study and experience, so I try to encourage that in my players. I Ask them how they got that spell, where did they come up with the idea, or when did they have time to actually put those spells in their book while they were trudging through a Dragon's lair? I've also started limiting what spells they can achieve easily. PH & PH2 spells are relatively easy to obtain up to level 4. Most large cities have at least one magic shop with them in it, but I don't allow them access to them willy-nilly. Other spells, detailed in other settings, location books (Shining South for example), or the Spell Compendium are going to be harder to find. And spells with people's names attached are instantly rare regardless of level. So if someone in my Realms game wasn't Knauper's Skittish Nerves then they're going to have to find one of Knauper's apprentices, Knauper himself, or a place he frenquented. This doesn't mean that I'll deny the PC the spell, he just has to work for it. I also encourage PCs to create their own spells or adjust/re-name published spells as their own. If a PC is all about Acid damage, uses it at every turn, and takes feats to increase his acid damaging potential, then I can safely assume that spells like Acid Fog and the like will be learned (or created by) that PC. I also do the same for Martial character and Maneuvers/Stances. By taking 4E's powers, I've allowed my PCs to adapt them to v3.5 standards and "learn" them as Martial Exploits (the conversion is quite simple IMO).

To expand on the ideas I've mentioned further, I require Divine classes to pray to specific temples to receive non-standard spells. If someone wants to learn a Spell Compendium divine spell, then he'll have to travel to a place with a real temple and worship there or offer gold (or loot, or what have you) in order to achieve this spell.

So in closing, I feel that magic often gets the great bumps it does at higher levels because many capaigns flood the market with easily obtainable spells for those spellcasters.

[Matt James]

Many of my friends really disliked me because I was so strict in enforcing resource management when it came to material components. I found that managing spell components helped to alleviate many issues, but at the same time it:

* Really made book-keeping a horrid task
* Limited the players from using spells they were so accustom to using

It gives me a slight headache to even think about it.

[Steelfiredragon]

should of given them the escrew materials feet for free like alot of others have said elsewhere.

4e did it better than 3.x did.

pathfinder has some few ways around it along with escrew materials....

dragon age... mana points
hate spell components as this argument comes up with another, gear upkeep, namely armor repairs and weapon sharpening.


headaches and not fun.